As you read Willa Cather's novel, I will post some of my thoughts, and I will post some of your thoughts, as well. Feel free to comment on any post, but please be thoughtful and considerate when you do, and please don't comment anonymously. --EC
Tuesday, March 15, 2011
Thoughts?
What are you thinking as you read on, now that Jim has left Black Hawk and seems to be moving on in his life...?
I feel like I'm learning a lot more about Jim as a character - his weaknesses, strengths, likes, dislikes, etc. I feel like that as a child, he was always overshadowed by Antonia's vibrant personality, but now that he's had the chance to really grow intellectually, he's coming into his own. Jim's relationship with Lena is a perfect example of this - he's moved on past Antonia, and even ignored her warnings about getting involved with Lena. He finally seems to be thinking for himself - albeit with the help of his college mentor.
Gabriel: yes, the book is always leading to a depressing crescendo... in fact many of them! On the other hand, the book has a largely happy ending, in a way. So you can look forward to that... --EC
Catherine: Though I agree he is thinking about himself more, I still don't think he shows any sort of strong personality. He talks about his decisions (like moving to Harvard with Cleric), but the only thing he talks about in any kind of detail is Lena.
Best book we had read all year. The part whereby Jim and Antonia sat down and had that heart-to-heart talk was so touching. I love the way Jim admitted that he thought of Antonia, and I really felt relief when Jim and Antonia decided to patch up and forgive each other. The strongest scene was when he held her hand and reminisced about their past. - Tsi Yu
I feel like Jim is learning how to become a man in this last portion of the novel. He is able to choose his own path in life, while the beginning of the book was sett up to make it seem like he thought that everything wasn't up to him and that somethings just happen. A strong sense of courage and understanding of the way the world works, comes through when we are nearing the end of the novel. And I am loving the romantic relationship that's blossoming between Antonia and Jim. --Nathan
The last part of the book mentioned the railways. It stated that "the same road was to bring us together again," and I found this line really interesting. The book started off mentioning Jim's transit on the railway, and ended mentioning that very same railway. Perhaps this is alluding to the end of his journey. - Tsi Yu
When I read "the sun dropped..." while Jim and Antonia were talking, I immediately thought, 'Oh no, not the same image!" It wasn't even that close to the time with the plow. It was about the sun and the moon. Anyways... The story seems to be going in fast forward now. Everything goes by so quickly; I lose track of who is doing what and where.
It's strange to me that even though Jim admits he is in love with Antonia for a time and she obviously cares for him as well, neither of them ever mentions the possibility of a future for their relationship. Both of them seem to have accepted that nothing more will come, although there isn't exactly a clear explanation or reason for this. -Sarah Madoff
Jim's description of the momentary balancing of the sun and the moon as poles in the sky has such a sharp, powerful pull and nostalgia to it. This short passage seems to have an emotional depth to it (like Hemingway's iceberg, perhaps) that the almost simpler, more plot and less emotion based majority of the book lacks. I find Cather's descriptions of the prairies to be, for me, the most beautiful and powerful parts of the book, especially in this passage. There is something inexplicably forceful about it. It deals heavily with nostalgia, like the earlier plow in the sun image, but this is a much more personal nostalgia between Jim, Antonia, and the land, as Jim expresses when he says he "felt the old pull of the earth, the solemn magic". This scene serves to reveal that although we have seen surprisingly little of Antonia given the title of the book, she and Jim have something as encompassing as the sky Jim finds himself under his first night in Nebraska, although it does not weigh on them the way the sky initially did. ~ Coco
The beginning of book IV was not that intresting except the fact that we find out how Larry Dononvan left Antonia with a baby and he goes to Mexico himself. I really liked the last part of book IV because it was touching to see how Antonia and Jim finally reconected. They way they interacted was like old times and it shows that both of their feelings toward each other barely change except that Antonia just wants to be really good friends with Jim. As Jim remebers the old times with Antonia, it is sort of sad too. I dont' know if they are going to meet again in the last book. -Harry
Thanks to all commenters. In response to Sarah's comment (why don't Jim and Antonia get together), I think it's hard for us to imagine the social context: Jim is from a very different social class than Antonia and the rest of the immigrant hired girls. This is partly a story about two kids who are close when they are kids and then grow up to realize that one of them is upper middle class and the other is working class--a gulf that maybe seemed clearer back then but is still pretty present. Also, Antonia doesn't see Jim that way. Also, Jim is sort of a masculinized Willa Cather, and a relationship between Willa Cather and Antonia was even less socially likely than between Jim and Antonia! --EC
I agree with Sarah: the moment between Jim and Ántonia as they parted was a sudden and unexpected reminder of the intensity of the relationship they shared, but I also was bothered that they didn't acknowledge any possibility of a future together. Also, for a story about Ántonia, there doesn't seem to be much about her, or their relationship, and her life, though eventually happy, fades off as he moves on. The beginning creates an expectation of some promising or eventful future, but her life, and even the important things that happen in it, are seen through a perspective that renders them of little consequence, just a story to be told. Despite all that, I really loved the book.
Mr Colburn: That’s interesting that you say Jim is like a masculanized Willa Cather because this whole book i’ve many times felt myself that Jim was pretty feminine. Especially compared with all the other young men in the book such as Larry Donovan and Ambrosch who are both pretty much embodiments of negative stereotypes of men. I think that maybe Jim is actually what Willa Cather considers to be an ideal man: compassionate, intelligent, and sensitive and that therefore there is some tragedy in him not being with Antonia. Another possibility of Jim’s apparent femininity might just be a reflection of Willa Cather not doing a such good job portraying a male mind.
Now that the setting is back on the Nebraska plain's, I find it interesting that Cather goes back to constantly mentioning the red grass. The red grass seems to be a steady image throughout the book, yet Cather explains that much of it died or was cut down. This shows a physical change and proves that even the isolated Nebraska plains can experience change. Henry
There is a sense of realness in the divergence between Jim and Antonia. Relationships change and people move on, but at the same time, this book shows the value of holding on to your past, what made you the person you are. Jim remembers his young life, and holds it to him, and although he's living in the past somewhat, he's not shedding it altogether either. Antonia was a part of him and continues to be. He was able to mature but still feel the shadows of love he had for her, and I think that's something we can learn from. - Olga
I am not too sure whether this is a possibility or not....but couldnt Lena have been the person Jim had met on the train which was mentioned before/at the very beginning of the book? I dont believe I see any contradictions to disapprove of this possibility. After the chapter with Lena, I dont see why Jim really liked Antonia so much, it seems like Jim and Lena's personalities seem to match more. Andrew
I agree with Tracy's point that it seems strange that the book is supposedly about Antonia but we just seem to see her story as a story. Jim talks a lot about her as they are younger and towards the end we hear less and less about Antonia. This is strange because the beginning of the book seemed like a lead in to a lng lasting romantic relationship between Jim and Antonia but this relationship never really seems to materialize.
I find it interesting that Jim seems to be making a pretty smooth transition to manhood. As a teenager, the struggles of this awkward in between stage are quite in my face, so it is interesting to me that jim seems to skip this phase. He goes from country boy to town teen to city man, but does not seem to deal with any of the normal "awkward years" shinanigans.
Tracey says: "her life, and even the important things that happen in it, are seen through a perspective that renders them of little consequence, just a story to be told" -- but Tracey also loves the book--why? Is it that, as Olga and others have said, the book seems "real"? Is it that we are moved partly BECAUSE these big events are told in a way that makes them "of little consequence"? Is it moving to realize that even the big events of our lives are small, inconsequential, and passing--and telling them from this perspective kind of highlights that? Or do they, from this distance, become somehow monumental? Or both? I'm not sure...
What will happen between Jim and Antonia? It seems interesting that Antonia the strong woman she sees to be would have gotten married because she was with child. She didn't seem to follow societies rules, also she must have known or had a feeling that she was going to be left. Will Jim want to help her, be a figure for her and her child? I don't think she would accept his help. I think their relationship is too complicated already to involve more emotions and a child.
I think Jim can longer think of Antonia as pure, and so he will make no overtures to marry her. He is disappointed that she let a man take advantage of her after how strong she seemed.
In response to Catherine: I still think that Jim is ever overshadowed by Antonia's vibrant personality, even though he is no longer around her or in contact with her. When reading about Jim's relationship with Lena, I got this inexplicable feeling that this whole relationship was, at least on Jim's part, an effort to "get over" Antonia and to somehow "show" her that they weren't necessarily destined to be together. Perhaps this is all wrong, and I'm overexploiting a romeo and juliet-esque interpretation of this novel.
Makes me sad D:, something very depressing about the end of the reading, but everything else was leading to a depressing crescendo.
ReplyDeleteI feel like I'm learning a lot more about Jim as a character - his weaknesses, strengths, likes, dislikes, etc. I feel like that as a child, he was always overshadowed by Antonia's vibrant personality, but now that he's had the chance to really grow intellectually, he's coming into his own. Jim's relationship with Lena is a perfect example of this - he's moved on past Antonia, and even ignored her warnings about getting involved with Lena. He finally seems to be thinking for himself - albeit with the help of his college mentor.
ReplyDelete- Catherine
Gabriel: yes, the book is always leading to a depressing crescendo... in fact many of them! On the other hand, the book has a largely happy ending, in a way. So you can look forward to that... --EC
ReplyDeleteCatherine: Though I agree he is thinking about himself more, I still don't think he shows any sort of strong personality. He talks about his decisions (like moving to Harvard with Cleric), but the only thing he talks about in any kind of detail is Lena.
ReplyDeleteBest book we had read all year. The part whereby Jim and Antonia sat down and had that heart-to-heart talk was so touching. I love the way Jim admitted that he thought of Antonia, and I really felt relief when Jim and Antonia decided to patch up and forgive each other. The strongest scene was when he held her hand and reminisced about their past. - Tsi Yu
ReplyDeleteI feel like Jim is learning how to become a man in this last portion of the novel. He is able to choose his own path in life, while the beginning of the book was sett up to make it seem like he thought that everything wasn't up to him and that somethings just happen. A strong sense of courage and understanding of the way the world works, comes through when we are nearing the end of the novel. And I am loving the romantic relationship that's blossoming between Antonia and Jim. --Nathan
ReplyDeleteThe last part of the book mentioned the railways. It stated that "the same road was to bring us together again," and I found this line really interesting. The book started off mentioning Jim's transit on the railway, and ended mentioning that very same railway. Perhaps this is alluding to the end of his journey. - Tsi Yu
ReplyDeleteWhen I read "the sun dropped..." while Jim and Antonia were talking, I immediately thought, 'Oh no, not the same image!" It wasn't even that close to the time with the plow. It was about the sun and the moon. Anyways...
ReplyDeleteThe story seems to be going in fast forward now. Everything goes by so quickly; I lose track of who is doing what and where.
It's strange to me that even though Jim admits he is in love with Antonia for a time and she obviously cares for him as well, neither of them ever mentions the possibility of a future for their relationship. Both of them seem to have accepted that nothing more will come, although there isn't exactly a clear explanation or reason for this.
ReplyDelete-Sarah Madoff
Jim's description of the momentary balancing of the sun and the moon as poles in the sky has such a sharp, powerful pull and nostalgia to it. This short passage seems to have an emotional depth to it (like Hemingway's iceberg, perhaps) that the almost simpler, more plot and less emotion based majority of the book lacks. I find Cather's descriptions of the prairies to be, for me, the most beautiful and powerful parts of the book, especially in this passage. There is something inexplicably forceful about it. It deals heavily with nostalgia, like the earlier plow in the sun image, but this is a much more personal nostalgia between Jim, Antonia, and the land, as Jim expresses when he says he "felt the old pull of the earth, the solemn magic". This scene serves to reveal that although we have seen surprisingly little of Antonia given the title of the book, she and Jim have something as encompassing as the sky Jim finds himself under his first night in Nebraska, although it does not weigh on them the way the sky initially did.
ReplyDelete~ Coco
The beginning of book IV was not that intresting except the fact that we find out how Larry Dononvan left Antonia with a baby and he goes to Mexico himself. I really liked the last part of book IV because it was touching to see how Antonia and Jim finally reconected. They way they interacted was like old times and it shows that both of their feelings toward each other barely change except that Antonia just wants to be really good friends with Jim. As Jim remebers the old times with Antonia, it is sort of sad too. I dont' know if they are going to meet again in the last book.
ReplyDelete-Harry
Thanks to all commenters. In response to Sarah's comment (why don't Jim and Antonia get together), I think it's hard for us to imagine the social context: Jim is from a very different social class than Antonia and the rest of the immigrant hired girls. This is partly a story about two kids who are close when they are kids and then grow up to realize that one of them is upper middle class and the other is working class--a gulf that maybe seemed clearer back then but is still pretty present. Also, Antonia doesn't see Jim that way. Also, Jim is sort of a masculinized Willa Cather, and a relationship between Willa Cather and Antonia was even less socially likely than between Jim and Antonia! --EC
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sarah: the moment between Jim and Ántonia as they parted was a sudden and unexpected reminder of the intensity of the relationship they shared, but I also was bothered that they didn't acknowledge any possibility of a future together. Also, for a story about Ántonia, there doesn't seem to be much about her, or their relationship, and her life, though eventually happy, fades off as he moves on. The beginning creates an expectation of some promising or eventful future, but her life, and even the important things that happen in it, are seen through a perspective that renders them of little consequence, just a story to be told. Despite all that, I really loved the book.
ReplyDeleteMr Colburn: That’s interesting that you say Jim is like a masculanized Willa Cather because this whole book i’ve many times felt myself that Jim was pretty feminine. Especially compared with all the other young men in the book such as Larry Donovan and Ambrosch who are both pretty much embodiments of negative stereotypes of men. I think that maybe Jim is actually what Willa Cather considers to be an ideal man: compassionate, intelligent, and sensitive and that therefore there is some tragedy in him not being with Antonia. Another possibility of Jim’s apparent femininity might just be a reflection of Willa Cather not doing a such good job portraying a male mind.
ReplyDeleteNow that the setting is back on the Nebraska plain's, I find it interesting that Cather goes back to constantly mentioning the red grass. The red grass seems to be a steady image throughout the book, yet Cather explains that much of it died or was cut down. This shows a physical change and proves that even the isolated Nebraska plains can experience change. Henry
ReplyDeleteThere is a sense of realness in the divergence between Jim and Antonia. Relationships change and people move on, but at the same time, this book shows the value of holding on to your past, what made you the person you are. Jim remembers his young life, and holds it to him, and although he's living in the past somewhat, he's not shedding it altogether either. Antonia was a part of him and continues to be. He was able to mature but still feel the shadows of love he had for her, and I think that's something we can learn from. - Olga
ReplyDeleteI am not too sure whether this is a possibility or not....but couldnt Lena have been the person Jim had met on the train which was mentioned before/at the very beginning of the book? I dont believe I see any contradictions to disapprove of this possibility. After the chapter with Lena, I dont see why Jim really liked Antonia so much, it seems like Jim and Lena's personalities seem to match more.
ReplyDeleteAndrew
I agree with Tracy's point that it seems strange that the book is supposedly about Antonia but we just seem to see her story as a story. Jim talks a lot about her as they are younger and towards the end we hear less and less about Antonia. This is strange because the beginning of the book seemed like a lead in to a lng lasting romantic relationship between Jim and Antonia but this relationship never really seems to materialize.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that Jim seems to be making a pretty smooth transition to manhood. As a teenager, the struggles of this awkward in between stage are quite in my face, so it is interesting to me that jim seems to skip this phase. He goes from country boy to town teen to city man, but does not seem to deal with any of the normal "awkward years" shinanigans.
ReplyDeleteTracey says: "her life, and even the important things that happen in it, are seen through a perspective that renders them of little consequence, just a story to be told" -- but Tracey also loves the book--why? Is it that, as Olga and others have said, the book seems "real"? Is it that we are moved partly BECAUSE these big events are told in a way that makes them "of little consequence"? Is it moving to realize that even the big events of our lives are small, inconsequential, and passing--and telling them from this perspective kind of highlights that? Or do they, from this distance, become somehow monumental? Or both? I'm not sure...
ReplyDeleteWhat will happen between Jim and Antonia? It seems interesting that Antonia the strong woman she sees to be would have gotten married because she was with child. She didn't seem to follow societies rules, also she must have known or had a feeling that she was going to be left. Will Jim want to help her, be a figure for her and her child? I don't think she would accept his help. I think their relationship is too complicated already to involve more emotions and a child.
ReplyDeleteI think Jim can longer think of Antonia as pure, and so he will make no overtures to marry her. He is disappointed that she let a man take advantage of her after how strong she seemed.
ReplyDelete-Benny
In response to Catherine: I still think that Jim is ever overshadowed by Antonia's vibrant personality, even though he is no longer around her or in contact with her. When reading about Jim's relationship with Lena, I got this inexplicable feeling that this whole relationship was, at least on Jim's part, an effort to "get over" Antonia and to somehow "show" her that they weren't necessarily destined to be together. Perhaps this is all wrong, and I'm overexploiting a romeo and juliet-esque interpretation of this novel.
ReplyDelete